From mbcrui at gmail.com  Mon Mar  8 16:01:43 2010
From: mbcrui at gmail.com (Mary Cruickshank-Peed)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:01:43 -0500
Subject: [Goglog] God hates America
Message-ID: <4B9573C7.7090105@gmail.com>

http://www.scotusblog.com/2010/03/court-to-rule-on-funeral-pickets/

"The Rev. Phelps? church preaches a strongly anti-gay message, 
contending that God hates America because it tolerates homosexuality, 
particularly in the military services."

As much as this person sickens me, the argument being made in this case 
is whether his picketing at private, military funerals is covered under 
the 1st Amendment. It's very interesting...

Personally, I think we should point out to the "Rev." Phelps that Canada 
allows homosexual marriages and has outlawed discrimination based on 
sexual orientation, so why is God killing US soldiers? Maybe he'd move 
to Canada (sorry, Canada).

Mary

-- 
--
Mary Cruickshank Peed


We are bits of stellar matter that got cold by accident, bits of a star gone wrong.
  - Sir Arthur Eddington


From otter42 at gmail.com  Mon Mar  8 16:23:44 2010
From: otter42 at gmail.com (Liana Winsauer)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:23:44 -0600
Subject: [Goglog] God hates America
In-Reply-To: <4B9573C7.7090105@gmail.com>
References: <4B9573C7.7090105@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <97fc910b1003081423r2be76d60ja8e0f5295570c0c6@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Mary Cruickshank-Peed <mbcrui at gmail.com> wrote:

> Personally, I think we should point out to the "Rev." Phelps that Canada
> allows homosexual marriages and has outlawed discrimination based on
> sexual orientation, so why is God killing US soldiers? Maybe he'd move
> to Canada (sorry, Canada).

I think Fred's goon-squad has been turned back at the border at least once.

Besides, it's not nice to stick the neighbors with our rubbish.

Lon
otter42 at gmail.com

From jazz at qnet.com  Mon Mar  8 16:37:11 2010
From: jazz at qnet.com (jazz at qnet.com)
Date: Mon,  8 Mar 2010 14:37:11 -0800
Subject: [Goglog] God hates America
In-Reply-To: <4B9573C7.7090105@gmail.com>
References: <4B9573C7.7090105@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1268087831.4b957c1766357@webmail.qnet.com>

Quoting Mary Cruickshank-Peed <mbcrui at gmail.com>:

> http://www.scotusblog.com/2010/03/court-to-rule-on-funeral-pickets/
> 
> "The Rev. Phelps? church preaches a strongly anti-gay message, 
> contending that God hates America because it tolerates homosexuality, 
> particularly in the military services."
> 
> As much as this person sickens me, the argument being made in this case 
> is whether his picketing at private, military funerals is covered under 
> the 1st Amendment. It's very interesting...
>

I could see where they would go after him for being a nuisance, or disturbing
the peace, or trespassing or being uninvited at a private event.  If the
perimeter extent of the event were large enough to reasonably exclude him but
he broke into it anyway.  

But his 1st amendment rights to access and to speak on a public street or at an
otherwise open federal cemetery should still be in place.  If the perimeter
were so large as to be obviously onerous to him without being useful to the
funeral proceedings, he'd have some right to have them reduced.

The VA could go after him for trespass, for coming onto the grounds with no
intention of visiting a gravesite or memorial.  But that wouldn't stand up
long.

Interesting.

Bill Taylor


From mbcrui at gmail.com  Mon Mar  8 17:30:20 2010
From: mbcrui at gmail.com (Mary Cruickshank-Peed)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:30:20 -0500
Subject: [Goglog] God hates America
In-Reply-To: <1268087831.4b957c1766357@webmail.qnet.com>
References: <4B9573C7.7090105@gmail.com>
	<1268087831.4b957c1766357@webmail.qnet.com>
Message-ID: <4B95888C.7060109@gmail.com>

jazz at qnet.com wrote:
>
> I could see where they would go after him for being a nuisance, or disturbing
> the peace, or trespassing or being uninvited at a private event.  If the
> perimeter extent of the event were large enough to reasonably exclude him but
> he broke into it anyway.  
>   
I'm pretty sure he's not protesting at federal cemeteries. I think he's 
doing this at private funerals being held in churches in the person's 
home town.

/"In March four years ago, Marine Lance Corporal Matthew A. Snyder was 
killed while serving in Iraq. His family arranged for a private funeral, 
with Christian burial, at St. John?s Catholic Chruch in Westminster, Md. 
When word of the planned funeral appeared in the newspapers, the Rev. 
Fred W. Phelps, Sr., pastor of Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kan., 
who has gained notoriety in recent years by staging protests at military 
funerals, decided to stage a demonstration at the Maryland funeral. In 
response to such protests, some 40 states have passed laws to regulate 
funeral demonstrations."

/It's not the government. He's being sued by the family of Matthew A 
Snyder, a soldier killed in Iraq, for/ "intrusion into a secluded event, 
intentional infliction of emotional distress, and civil conspiracy". 
.../Phelps and his children and grandchildren/ "carried signs with such 
messages as ?God Hates the USA,? ?America is doomed,? ?Matt in hell,? 
?Semper fi fags,? and ?Thank God for dead soldiers.? The demonstration 
violate no local laws, and was kept at police orders a distance from the 
church. After the funeral, the Rev. Phelps continued his protest over 
the Snyder funeral on his church?s website, accusing the Snyder family 
of having taught their son irreligious beliefs."/

He's harassing private people at private events because he believes that 
dead soldiers are killed because God is punishing the country for having 
gays in the military.

I once protested a Nazi rally in Skokie (with a bunch of other 
protesters) with a sign I made that said "Better to be silent and be 
thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

This guy pisses me off, way worse... I wouldn't be able to protest his 
protest... I'd have to hit him. Maybe I've gotten less tolerant of FI's 
in my old age... I think he can say whatever he likes at recruiting 
offices, federal offices, military bases... but I can't wrap my mind 
around being able to picket private funerals...

It will be interesting...

Mary



-- 
--
Mary Cruickshank Peed


We are bits of stellar matter that got cold by accident, bits of a star gone wrong.
  - Sir Arthur Eddington


From toad at hauntedfrog.com  Mon Mar  8 18:29:36 2010
From: toad at hauntedfrog.com (Ann Totusek)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:29:36 -0600
Subject: [Goglog] God hates America
In-Reply-To: <97fc910b1003081423r2be76d60ja8e0f5295570c0c6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B9573C7.7090105@gmail.com>
	<97fc910b1003081423r2be76d60ja8e0f5295570c0c6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B959670.3090809@hauntedfrog.com>

Not only that, but Canada has tougher limits on speech than we do.  I 
kinda wish they'd sneak in somehow (not that I'd actually wish them on 
Canada either) and shoot off their mouths there instead.  They'd get 
some real Canadian hospitality.

Ann "here's your cot and 3 hots" Totusek



Liana Winsauer wrote:
> Replies are directed to the list.
> If you wish to respond only to the sender, please edit the To: line!
> ____________________________________________________________
> On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Mary Cruickshank-Peed <mbcrui at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Personally, I think we should point out to the "Rev." Phelps that Canada
>> allows homosexual marriages and has outlawed discrimination based on
>> sexual orientation, so why is God killing US soldiers? Maybe he'd move
>> to Canada (sorry, Canada).
> 
> I think Fred's goon-squad has been turned back at the border at least once.
> 
> Besides, it's not nice to stick the neighbors with our rubbish.
> 
> Lon
> otter42 at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> Goglog mailing list
> Goglog at mail.zarquon.net
> http://mail.zarquon.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/goglog


From SteveG at swhi.net  Mon Mar  8 19:50:39 2010
From: SteveG at swhi.net (Steve Gruenwald)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 19:50:39 -0600
Subject: [Goglog] God hates America
In-Reply-To: <4B95888C.7060109@gmail.com>
References: <4B9573C7.7090105@gmail.com><1268087831.4b957c1766357@webmail.qnet.com>
	<4B95888C.7060109@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <90C0B3DFE4344A28ADD1F4411828DEA0@StevePC>


Mary Cruickshank-Peed says: 

> I'm pretty sure he's not protesting at federal cemeteries. 

Not this time, the article made that clear.  He has in the 
past, which it also mentioned.  

It's primarily the Government's policies that he's 
protesting, plus those of society at large, and that's what 
gives him whatever First Amendment protection he has.  That 
seems to me to mean that he loses his protection when he 
makes allegations against private individuals, such as 
carrying signs saying "Matt in hell" or "accusing the Snyder 
family of having taught their son irreligious beliefs."  
Both those statements - assuming the latter is not 
demonstrably true, and in any event the first - seem like 
plain old public slander to me.  I don't know why that 
wasn't one of the bases of the civil complaint.  "Thank God 
for dead soldiers" might also qualify - the apparently 
intentional implication is "God killed your son."  (And no, 
I don't mean it qualifies as slander of God.)  

Also, to the extent that his actions were harassment of 
private people even for purposes of public discourse, it 
seems to me that those actions should not be entitled to 
*any* First Amendment protection.  It's like the difference 
between arguably just war and terrorism - he's trying his 
best to ruin the lives of specific innocent people as a 
means of disturbing the Government and the public at large.  
I gather that's the sort of argument they will be 
considering.  

> This guy pisses me off, way worse... 

Partly, I suspect, because he is not only grossly insulting 
(a) all US soldiers, (b) all current US patriots (almost 
*however* you define patriotism), and (c) all homosexual 
persons, but also (d) religion and God themselves, as most 
people see them.  Just try starting a sentence with "God 
hates -" and see how it fits in with almost anything you 
would call a reasonable faith.  According to him, there is 
a long list of people God *hates,* not only "fags" but Jews, 
Obama, Catholics - especially priests - and in fact pretty 
much everyone in the world but the loyal members of the 
Westboro Baptist Church.  And he claims to be saying this 
as a Christian!  

This issue is particularly timely to me.  I've been 
preparing to cover Mark Twain's "Letters From the Earth" 
with my church book group.  This article would have had 
Twain frothing at the mouth.  What better excuse could there 
be for his famous statement, "If Christ were here now there 
is one thing he would not be -- a Christian."  

    - Steve G 


From ben at bl.com  Mon Mar 15 04:53:55 2010
From: ben at bl.com (Ben Liberman)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 04:53:55 -0500
Subject: [Goglog] Homicide, life with the Sheiks
In-Reply-To: <4B9D86ED.5070402@5-cent.us>
References: <201003140023.o2E0Mb5r017406@angus.mystery.com>  
	<20100314124444.GA5702@clif.cflynt.com>  
	<87mxybvvta.fsf@thumper.dhh.gt.org>  
	<561d39d91003140914o3d8d096bh9a79aa9467a7bfb@mail.gmail.com>  
	<87hboix35s.fsf@thumper.dhh.gt.org> <20100314175627.GA21125@dminet.com>
	<878w9uwyiq.fsf@thumper.dhh.gt.org>  
	<20100314184912.GB21335@dminet.com> <874okiwpuo.fsf@thumper.dhh.gt.org>
	<E4683BB8-BDC1-4011-A927-78937193782E@worldnet.att.net>
	<4B9D86ED.5070402@5-cent.us>
Message-ID: <p06240801c7c39939a291@[10.19.35.98]>

PLEASE move this to goglog for those who wish to continue.

Sorry for the long post.  If you are not interested PLEASE skip all of this.
If you wish to comment on any of this, please do so on goglog.

At 9:01 PM -0400 3/14/10, mark wrote:
>I disagree. For at least 15 years, if not more, the mostly right-wing
>government of Israel has sponsored moving settlers into Palestinian areas,
>including East Jerusalem, which was almost exclusively Palestinian.

My family has lived in the area of East and West Jerusalem for over 300 years
and I believe that I am entitled to speak as a Palestinian.  As such, I resent
your general tone which seems to be based on things that you have read on the
internet.

Since you seem determined to use the internet as your primary source, that is
where I shall roam.

This was the most unbiased site that I could quickly find and it seems to
contain, as far as I can tell, a fairly accurate narrative of the history
of the area.  The site lists the sources for all of the material there.

If you have any better sources, I would appreciate it if you would point
me to them.  Thanks!

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=1128

I would suggest that you start reading with the time period 1920-1921 until
today which will give you a context for my comments below.


During the period of 1949 to 1956, the area called "the Gaza strip" was a
part of Egypt and was occupied by Arab refugees who fled the area of the
newly formed state of Israel.  Some of them fled because Arab radio encouraged
them to do so, to sit out the planned war, and return to their lands after
it was over.  Others fled later, being driven out by the Israeli forces.

After the war, the government of Egypt kept them bottled up there and refused
to let them resettle elsewhere.

During the same period, the area called "the West Bank" was a part of Jordan
and was also occupied by Arab refugees who were likewise contained and not
allowed to resettle elsewhere.  In both cases they were told that, as soon
as Israel was destroyed, they would be able to take over the whole area
as their own.

Needless to say, this did not happen.  They are still being told the same
story today.  It is in their textbooks, newspapers, and radio and TV
broadcasts.  You can sit in Israel, turn on a radio or TV, and listen
it on the Arab channels from across the boarder, any day of the week.

Both of these areas were also used as staging areas for attacks against
Israel over the years and were home to artillery and other military
resources that were deployed against Israel over time.

In 1956 I visited Israel with my father and mother.  While we were there we
stayed at the King David hotel in Jerusalem for a few days.  The western wall
of the hotel faced a small valley - a "no mans land" - the other side of
which was Jordan.  All of the windows on that side of the hotel where
bricked in because people on the Jordanian side liked to take pot shots at
anyone they could see on the Israeli side.  My father took his 8mm movie
camera and went to the end of the hall where there was an outside balcony
that faced north.  He peeked around the edge of the wall and took a few
minutes of film of an area that he freely roamed when he lived there as
a child in the 1920's under the British mandate.

In 1967, after [Egyptian President] Nasser had declared his intention to
annihilate the Jewish state and forged military alliances with Syria and
Jordan for that purpose, building up troop concentrations along his border
with Israel and blockading shipping to the Israeli port of Eilat, Israel
launched a preemptive strike against Egypt, Syria, and Jordan.

The six-day war that followed Israel's surprise attack ended with the
Israeli army occupying Egypt's Sinai Peninsula (including the Gaza Strip),
Syria's Golan Heights, and Jordan's West Bank.

-- 
------------------------------
 ben at BL.COM      Ben Liberman
------------------------------